our companies, all of them sell debt, not products.
i.e. get a honda accord for $0 down and a loan of 20,000 for 5 years. america and all monetary systems are based on debt not value or dollars that can be paid back. that's the way the system is designed. we shouldn't be mad at the people for operating in a flawed system. we need to change the system

Some of these stats are definitely misleading. I would advise looking them up for yourselves before jumping to conclusions. I would also like to have seen something like the average salary of a person who didn't attend any sort of college...

this is my post.. :)
why is it anonymous ?

the median is a meaningless average, what is the mean salary for ivyleague grads, i doubt it is worth the extra money but still, dont manipulate statistics for impact please

In defense of the maple syrup class, the same thing is offered at my school (Paul Smith's in NY) but it is so interactive and cool - you do the whole process. And have you noticed how EXPENSIVE (REAL) maple syrup is? To know how to do that, even just as a hobby, is like a mini gold mine. 

Kayvon, 
         Since you seem to hate this country so much then please do not keep yourself miserable any longer, stop punishing yourself and move to a third world country and say hi to their ever so pleasant dictator as he steals everything of value that you possess.  Oh please do move there and stop the agony of this terrible country that so mistreats you.  Or, maybe we just don't give you enough welfare?  What is it you so desire, maybe a bit more for rent, more food stamps to purchase that lobster or prime rib?  What more handouts could we possibly give you to keep you here.  C'mon, please let's bankrupt this lowlife country even further just for you....

Wow, its funny how people just can't believe these statistics when this is a NATIONWIDE statistics. Of course everyone is different but the whole idea is that this is the AVERAGE thus, even if it does or doesn't apply to you, its something that needs to be looked into. Frankly, I'm not even surprised because there are a lot of things that contributed to these results, they may be more but here's what I'm seeing (which you don't need to even be college educated to even notice): (1) with our $12 trillion debt and our economic crisis, education (especially public colleges) take into affect as well. The increase in the fees is just the consequence of a bigger issues in the U.S. (2) degrees are being overrated, meaning almost everyone is already in college getting a degree and getting experience, etc. and this time its different because decades ago, employers preferred workers with degrees but now that its common, it takes away the value of it and even if you do have experience, students are already competing in that as well (resume build up). (3) college students definitely contribute to the average American using money than what they really have, some because they want to and others because they have to. Either way, it definitely plays a big role as a whole. There are plenty more but rather than arguing whether this is a legit data or not, I think that people here should reconsider their own plans on what they want to do in school or for their future. 

did u research this topic, emma ?

wow, these satistics are all wrong...

People will argue over anything, huh? This document is full of misleading facts half baked Statistical Analysis. Do some research on some of the points it presents and you'll quickly realize just how exaggerated it is.

and oh yea, i'm white so i can't get any loan money. I want equal opportunity.

first off, for the amount of money i pay for school the drinking age should be at least 19 and i should get a free case of beer after each semester. Second off whoever said some bullcrap about univ of maryland being easy to pay off that's because i got accepted there with almost a full scholarship and i'm not the brightest student so yea it's nothing but idiots at univ of maryland.

hey

cuz fuck kayvon, thats why SErrreessss

@Oswald: You sir, are a moron.
@Kavyon: STFU and GTFO. You sir, are likewise a moron.

why is everyone trollin' on kayvon's opinion lol

elza.. its well. not " learn to speek english good" it would be well

One more thing before I finally leave this website. It's our lives so we can either a. )  Quit complaining do something about changing our education system, etc. or b.) Be a bump on the log and not do a damn thing about it. Also to the people writing negative things on here I think I should tell you an old wise quote my mother use to tell me, "if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all." Anyhoo, I thought I would leave a p.s comment. So I hope you lovely people understand that there is no need for name calling and saying negative things. Have a nice and lovely day. ^.^

Wow. I find this rather amusing that everybody is getting such a rise out this article that was posted October 2009 and that the people who have written negative things about Texas / deep south think that they're stupid red neck hicks. Well, hello there world. I'm currently a college student in Texas and I agree that this article make sense about an every day college/ex-college student. The reason I say this is because I have seen this happen time and time again to some buddies of mine (for both high school and college). Where they go to college and then drop out either a couple of weeks or semesters. Oh well, I understand the point everybody is trying to make, but I just this find it amusing that people are getting such rise out this article and the negative things that some people are writing in general. Oh well. 

And now I shall leave you lovely internet viewers with this song lyric from the wonderful artist called Jack Johnson,
"Cant you see that its just raining
ain't no need to go outside...
But Baby, You hardly even notice
when I try to show you this
song is meant to keep ya
from doing what your supposed to
waking up too early
Maybe we can sleep in
Ill make you banana pancakes
pretend like its the weekend now

And we can pretend it all the time
Cant you see that its just raining
ain't no need to go outside

Just maybe, like and ukelele
mommy made a baby
Really don't mind the breakfast
cause your my little lady
lady lady love me
cause I love to lay here lazy
we could close the curtains
pretend like there's no work outside

And we can pretend it all the time
Cant you see that its just raining
ain't no need to go outside
ain't no need ain't no need Mmmm MMmmm
Cant you see cant you see
rain all day
and I dont mind.

The telephone is singing
ringing its too early
don't pick it up
we don't need to we got everything
we need right here
and everything we need is enough
just so easy
when the whole world fits inside of your arms
don't really need to pay attention to the alarm
wake up slow, yeah wake up slow
You hardly even notice
when I try to show you this
song is meant to keep ya
from doing what your supposed to
waking up too early
Maybe we can sleep in
Ill make you banana pancakes
pretend like its the weekend now

And we can pretend it all the time
Cant you see that its just raining
ain't no need to go outside
Cant you see cant you see,
you gotta wake up slow. "

This article is a hit peice designed to present a biased picture.  It's statistics a cherry picked and massaged to present a point of view desired by it's creator.

Not being a big fan of colleges, I see many students coming here for college because American colleges are superior to those in other countries.   China sends it's people here to learn what they cannot teach in their own colleges, for example.  

If a student fails to study and drops out, is that a problem with the college or the student?  The BS presented here takes many problems of the student and blames the college system for those problems.  If you want to blame society, go ahead, but then you must blame the LIBERALIZATION of society not the opposite.  Many of societies ills were not present in society, until the liberalization of society that has taken place since the 60s.

Kayvon is a moron of the ignorant clan.  I despise people like you above all.  Defeatist self-loathing and pathetic.

Kayvon is absolutely right!

Why is the money spent on any amount of time a "waste of money"?  Many people do drop out before getting a degree, but I have to think there's some benefit in going at all.

Those of you posting shitty things about the US and college, go to college and learn something and get a life instead of spending time on discussion boards.  Those of you in college and talking on this board, stop doing this stupid shit and spend more time studying so you can graduate in four years.  Peace, Gayvon out!

This is hectic... here in Ukraine you can get good education times cheaper, only up to $3-5K per year. This applies to medicine faculties (most expensive)- if i were US citizen i could save money for f430 easily...
macjsnow@gmail.com

You guys have completely missed the point here. College is about drinking and partying so that when you go out into the real world and your life sucks, you'll have something to be nostalgic about and you can talk about the good 'ole days when you were actually cool and had friends.

what is so outrageous about majoring in Canadian studies? Just wait until the US starts running out of water...

i love how everybody assumes that any opinion that appears ignorant or wrong to them MUST be coming from the south. every time. fuck yall. thats all ive got to say.

You obviously have not been out of country. But Delta is ready when you are (headquartered in the Deep South).

@Rule Brittania, maybe you should realize opinions and we are culturally different, and instead of tolerating bad society, a few want to do something about it. ( I have nothing against the UK, I am half English, and a quarter welsh and irish_)

seriously though kayvon, get the fuck out. i hear france has vacancies.

if you think everywhere is really going to be soooooo much better then leave. fuck you.

@aishia:  Hopefully, it's because of different career choices and not sexism.  I mean, being a teacher isn't that good paying of a job, and it's mostly female dominant.

wat shocks me is that more women get bachelors degree but are paid less than men
the pay should be equal for ppl in the same post of work

I majored in English, took classes like 'Arguing with Judge Judy,' and will be getting paid to pursue a PhD in Lit. and Psych. beginning in the fall. I spent as much time studying as I did partying. Two of my college summers was funded generously by grant money. This article is propaganda, my friends. You can in fact be successful and have fun simultaneously.

LMFAO! HAHAHAHA really now? ! haha wordd

And here's something else to think about: regardless of whether this article is true, one thing remains certain: most high school graduates who go straight to 4 year schools are not ready for it. Most up until high school graduation depended on their parents for EVERYTHING, and this especially holds true for the more expensive schools where the parents can afford it all, including living expenses and video games. Result: out of reach of parental supervision immediately after turning 18, a false sense of "freedom", and absolute neglect of responsibility and common sense (a fifth of Jagermeister in one night? Really???). Multiply that by four years and you have insurmountable debt, alcoholism, failure to fall asleep before 2 AM, and having the college mentality trickle into adult life. To the Europeans who might not be familiar, this is to answer Moineau's question: there IS an alternative. That alternative is going to junior college. Junior college fees average to only about 100 dollars a unit nationwide (which still comes out to about $2,500-$3,000 per year, but that's tenfold cheaper annually than going to a four year school), and they are designed for students to transition from high school to college. They don't give out bachelor's degrees, but students who transfer to universities from junior college end up getting better grades at the four year school, attend smaller classes as opposed to full amphitheatres and lecture halls, are about 100 times more likely to graduate since they transfered with a goal in mind, are much more likely to graduate after 4 years, and are more likely to have more "academically respectable" majors such as liberal arts or sciences. Furthermore, students who exercise this option usually continue living at home or close to home, virtually eliminating the sensation of "I'm out of the reach of my parents so I can drink as much as I want now". By the time they transfer, they know their goals and purposes, have already taken all of the "weedout" courses (i.e. the ones that eliminate students from the passing grade pool via bell curve; gauss curve to europeans) and are not at the same school long enough to establish long-term party connections. It's a much better option and it still baffles me that not everyone is exercising it. Plus, that's two fewer years wasting money. And for the record-- I still don't have a bachelor's degree due to partying too much. However, I have held all three of those positions mentioned as "popular careers for these majors" for at least five months by age 20. I'm 24 now.

Okay, here are my criticisms with this article. It reveals more questions than answers IMHO:

1. Sources? Proof?
2. Too many vague terms such as "partying", "delay", "alcohol", "students", and "graduates". How much is a delay? What constitutes alcohol? What constitutes partying? Who is a student? Who is a graduate? If "delaying" buying a house or having children means not achieving this before age 25, then college and debt have hardly anything to do with it. I'd say it's more associated with social norms or life choices.
3. No statistics whatsoever about grad school, law school or med school-- do these salary figures include masters' or Ph.D recipients? Lawyers and doctors? Because they have bachelor's degrees too. My sociology professor, Mitch Duneier, is the only person I have ever met who has a post-grad degree and no bachelor's.
4. Do those figures include junior college transfers? Because they're only in universities for one or two years.
5. Every experiment needs a control. What's the median salary for non-bachelor's recipients? How much do people who are not college freshmen spend on alcohol each year? 
6. What about financial aid statistics?
7. Does this include specialized schools that give out bachelor's degrees (i.e. arts, photography, music recording, etc)? Because most of these schools have some sort of accelerated bachelor's programs, some of which are designed for the student to receive a bachelor's in 2 years.
8. 57% take 6 years or more to finish, but does this include time spent abroad or "semsters off"? Because it shouldn't. Time in between semesters does not count as being enrolled in college.
9. "Career" is completely different from "employment position". Career implies something you do between graduation and retirement. How many store managers, CSRs and admin assistants stick with those positions for life?
10. Finally... what are the other 6 majors on the list of 10 most popular? I guarantee BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES, BUSINESS, and MECHANICAL ENGINEERING are all on there.

I see many europeans reading this while pointing and laughing at us, and that's embarassing... but circumstances need to be factored in as well. This is a big country, it's not our fault our government is too money-hungry and war-mongering to move education and health care to the public sector, and this is the system we have to work with here. No matter how accurate or unbiased this article is (it isn't), the message here is plain and simple: OUR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO INVEST MORE MONEY IN EDUCATION. The future of the nation depends on it. Nothing else.

LOLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

@ Kayvon
You're a bitch

whoops, left out one more word.

okay, this:

(quoting from Eliza)

Mike, learn [to] speak English [well] so [that the] time next you want [TO] insult us[,] YOU don't look like [an] ignorant useless pig of the world who will [soon be done].

^ even more fixed.

@ Elza:

"Mike, learn speak English good so when time next you want insult us YOU don't look like ignorant useless pig of the world who will be done soon."

....

this: 

Mike, learn [to] speak English [well] so [that the] time next you want insult us[,] YOU don't look like [an] ignorant useless pig of the world who will [soon be done].


^ fixed.

 I want to work online .. 
There are some thin if the legitimate work as a line there. Most are sites and marketing study for the site owner rich, not you. The only thing is true legitimacy Ebay, selling things you already own

www.onlineuniversalwork.com

I'm an engineering student in a public NY university and I think most Americans are dumbasses.  The international students from China and India are about 30% of the undergraduate classes and 50%-70% of graduate classes and are all incredibly studious and are actually working for their degree.  These statistics are pretty much true as much as people want to deny it.  Most international students are smarter than the average person here.

The Americans here I see in my classes are mostly Asian too so seriously, you need to get Americans off facebook and interested in majors that can be useful in society.  
Also, people who go to trade schools and are bragging they come out with so little debt and a good job.  Tell me, how many senior engineers do you see come from a trade school.  The reason people go to college is that in the future,  for that promotional you'll be considered before the technical school guy because you have a degree.  Face the facts, to make more money you need a degree.  

Wow, such a lot of hate for your country guys, here in the UK we have the failing NHS, student debts that cripple most graduates for the first 10 years of their careers, a 50% income tax bracket, 10% national insurance, politicians just a crooked as yours, and terrible weather. 

But do you hear us complaining. Nope.

Hate something. Change something. It really is that easy.

oh and yes...the other poster at it right...we are paying much more than that in taxes.  ...well, SOME of us are. we are paying over 40% now. this after growing up with next to nothing, paying our OWN way through college, serving in the military (including the war) and going into huge debt to fund a dental practice. everyone believes in the american dream, but God forbid you actually get it! at that point, everyone will hate you and try to figure out a way to knock you back down a few pegs. great incentive to put all that effort in, huh? :/

@ uk.... you have got it right! many people here are clueless about just how well off they have it and won't be happy until the "govt" (us) fund even more than we're funding now in free health care, education, cell phone use, ...you name it. people are totally clueless. things are not "free" ...someone (LIKE MY HUSBAND AND I) are footing the bill. keep it up...keep begging for "free" healthcare. soon you might get it. then you'll see that "free" isn't all it's cracked up to be. it's stupidity, i tell you!

Kayvon - I just came inside your moms mouth.

You know how much school costs in my country? Nothing. We get paid by the state to go to school.

@Kavyon - I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas. I am 22 years old and have been in graduate school for two years. I am working on getting a PHD in neuroscience and cognition. I am a published author.
And yet all I have to say to you is, "Get the Fuck OUT!!!"

I guess Canadian Studies is just as pointless as Bowling Industry Management...

It's so funny how the first person gets shit on no matter what they say, I bet if kayvon said the southern crap then people would write exactly what s/he really wrote. This country is run by the banks and the big corporations. The forbes 400 (top 400 richest people) made a combined $17.6 trillion in 2009. There were 1.6 million jobs lost in 2009, 500k in December alone. The deficit is $17.1(or 3) trillion. How is any of the situation in this country justified. There is no America - never was, it's proper name is the United States of America; now it's the Bonded Police States of Corporate North America. We've all been bought and paid for, by ourselves, and now belong to Financial Institutions and the mega-manufacturers of basic needs and snake oil. We're fucked, the future is fucked. Why can't we just promote education and then we can waste lives (only of those in the red shirts) trying to explore the universe, not through wars fought over oil, which cannabis can totally replace, and money and other things. The dangers of the unknown should be mankind's only enemy - not each other, or the man. 

Winemaking is a perfectly fine and valid education. It's a big industry that employs a lot of people. It's not a good example of a worthless degree.

I went to Yale. bit

America is accepted as the woeld cemntre for fucking idiots who think they are smart and has only one strength and that is bullying. GFY

I just want to note that Centre College's "Art of Walking" class is heavily misconstrued to be some sort of glorified physical education class. I am a Centre student and know that it is actually a difficult philosophy class. Here is the course description:

The Art of Walking in Europe: 24 May – 14 June, 2010.   Students live in Centre’s Strasbourg apartments while exploring the city and region on foot, by bike, and by train.  The text for the course is Immanuel Kant's Analytics of the Beautiful and of the Sublime; the context for the course is Cathedral, castle ruins, waterfalls, canals, and botanical gardens.  Class excursions will transport students to the mountains on either side of the Rhine River: the Black Forest in Germany and the Vosges Mountains in Alsace.  Students with no French will get “survival French” training at the beginning of the course.  The second weekend is free for individual travel in Europe from Thursday-Sunday evening; the last few days of the course are conducted in Paris.  This option is not available to students who have studied or plan to study in Strasbourg.  More information will be available on Wednesday, January 13th, at 7:00 p.m., in the Davidson Room in Carnegie.  For this course, you must first be approved by Ms. Nesmith at the Center for Global Citizenship and then pay a $500 non-refundable deposit at the Cashier’s Office by Monday, March 8th; the additional $1900 is due May 3rd.  This trip qualifies for senior subsidy support.  Cost, including tuition, airfare, room, board, and excursions: $2400.  Taught by Prof. Keffer.

This is the European version. I could not find the on campus edition, but the only difference in the class on campus and abroad is that the walking part of the class takes place in Kentucky instead of France. Dig deeper when criticizing, it will cause less misunderstanding

http://www.centre.edu

@ angelontheside - i dont think anyone is trying to sell themselves here...they are giving their backgrounds in order to give their comments more meaning....
Paying for school is difficult, but people need to remember the big picture, and i agree, college (or life for that matter) is what you make of it. 

College is expensive. Pay for it however you can. It is unfortunate, though, that not all citizens capable of earning a high-level degree are not able to do so because academics have largely become a matter of profit. Hopefully, something will be done so that parents don't have to take out a second mortgage and students don't have to take live with crushing debt for 10 years just to get a degree - which they probably won't apply for half of those years anyway. Getting a degree does not mean getting a career - it just means being eligible. As an educator, I can only hope my students will get the opportunity to pursue higher learning to whatever extent they wish without being afraid of 10+ years of debt or entering a job market where their degree is worthless.

I am so suprised and over whelmed... I had to scroll down for ages to get to this comment box. 
Firstly, there are far to many people trying to 'sell' themselves, bragging about this degree anad that... I had to fund my degree after loosing track and having kids first, no support, no expectations of support and yes some to pay back still. I have had the time of my life, it's bloody hard teaching teenagers now after 5 years of training, to prepare them for a world with such low morale and expectations but if didn't try, I wouldn't feel human. So, don't lose track of what it's all about and for goodness sake - stop wallowing in self pity or pride, look forward to what and why and think of the kids!!!

Solution:

Americans actually teach their children to try in high school, get scholarships, and go to college.

I'm not paying a dime for college. In fact, after paying my tuition and fees, my university pays ME and it's enough to manage rent each semester.

Envisci is right... you can go to college, party, have fun and still earn A's and get a decent degree in the regularly allotted time.

As for the statistic that most people use 6 or more years to graduate, well, it's set up for five years, not four. They say 12 hours is a full-time regular load. Most degrees require 120 credit hours. That means 10 semesters of 12 hours each. Five years. So an extra year for people who change their major or fail a class or two isn't really that extravagant. 

I am a graduating senior at a top 30 ranked private school. I will be graduating this May with a B.S. in earth and environmental science (with no debt, and a focus on paleoclimatology), and am currently waiting to hear back from graduate schools, so obviously my first comment would be to Ben: you have no idea what you are talking about. Trying to explain the state of our earth to people like you is a waste of time. Try looking at the data yourself, if you can even understand it. But more importantly, COLLEGE IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT. I know students you party almost everyday of the week, but still go to classes, take notes, pay attention, and leave the class enlightened (and earn A's).  However, I also know students who don't do their school work, don't think they have to study, and have subsequently failed out. As a student, you have the choice to go to class and pay attention or to screw around. In addition, for most majors learning is not restricted to classes: you can ask to work personally on a project with a teacher, conduct research (which I have been doing for three semesters), work for teachers, etc. Such experiences can give you a real idea of what your major has to offer after graduation. All you need to do is try and put yourself out there! Know what your school has to offer! Use the services that your university offers! And also, the requirements I was forced to take at my school truly taught me skills (critical reading, analyzing arguments, writing with style, etc.) that can be applied in my major and in real life. 
Sidenote: If you do not know what the Kyoto protocol is it might be good to educate yourself in global affairs. But of course, I am biased due to my major. 

No offense to the people who pursue a degree in something that doesn't have any job opportunities, but WHY?  I'm an engineering student and only came to college because that's the only way I could pursue a career in engineering.  I don't understand my friend the English major. 

I took 4 classes at a community college. While attending, I got a job in a field related to my classes. In less than a year, I was making what I would have made had I bothered getting a degree. Every job I've had since has specified a preference for someone with a degree, but I get the job because I have experience. I feel no need to go to college to learn anything - for the price of my internet connection, when something interests me, I learn it.

Some folks need the structure and social opportunities offered by formal education. Some don't. Choose a path appropriate to your needs.

as usual, the comments are more hilarious than the freakin' charts itself.
grow up people. 

you all suck,
youre all gay,
go die in a hole.

why are you quoting Plato in 2010?

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets, inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" - Plato

We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self-control." These words - expressing the all-too-familiar contemporary condemnation of young people - were actually inscribed on a 6,000-year-old Egyptian tomb.

Sarah has the best comment - I totally agree with you - from 01/05/2010

Nobody cares

LOL, HEINZ.

the us is such a shitwhole. luckly it is going down, the chinese are fucking the americans deep in the ass and the us cant do anything about it. 

eat your bacon dumb obese stupid americans.

Hook 'em!

@sinemetu apparently they can't get over keyvon, but they are still mostly staying on the subject. :)

I would take Canadian Studies.

Darn. I should be making alot more money. 

Why are the majority of these comments about keyvon, isnt the topic education in the united states?

I apologize for those on the last forth of the blog for not reading theirs if I repeat some part of it. I shall make a couple of closing arguments. 1)This site like almost all things in life is plastered with bias (including this post). I post as an objectivist who see things in a rational light and not skewed from ridiculous ideas. The facts posted may be spun for the site's point to get across, but that should be understood before anyone even read the site. Stop arguing over what this person posted. 2)There are a ton of stupid people out there. Nothing we can do about it. Instead the smart ones can live their lives in a rational co-existence with others thinking people and idiots. 3)We live in a society now where people always find someone to blame for their problems. Talk to just about any person you see or turn on any t.v. channel and someone is getting blamed for something. We should do what human beings can do,  think rationally. Take responsibility for your own actions and do something about it. For things you aren't responsible for, do something about it. 4)The curriculum for high school in America  is a waste of time and could be cut down to two, maybe two and a half years. Students learn the same things in math and science for years leading up to high school, then repeat it all slightly more in depth. History has a lot more in depth, but now it is becoming where students are to analyze the morals of people years and years ago (even multiple centuries ago). 5)The cost of colleges and universities for tuition and other such things is inflated tremendously, but little can be done at present to fix that. 6) Something I heard recently was that people in college learn to “follow” directions and not to think. This was then backed with the evidence of the majority of multi-millionaires/billionaires had little education at all, but instead invented something grand because they were able to find a cheap, concise solution to a problem. I agree based on the the number of people coming out of college getting a job working under someone instead of staking out a claim for something themselves. The leaders of the world almost all are “followers” in expensive suits. We need more “leaders” now more than ever. This great country was founded on the entrepreneurial ideas of those who first came over here to make lives for themselves. Lets bring it back.

I have a job at a gas company.. Go figure... at 6 of them.
Great comment Cherie S. 
That was my initial comment when I began looking at this.

You can get an education from a public library. Yes, I can already hear you....  BLAH BLAH... I went community college and am only 5,000 in debt and I probably know as much as some of you that spent 50,000. HA
The problem is that they WANT you in the above predicament and feeding the system. 
WHY should an education cost so much?? 
If these statistics are correct, our country is not in touch with reality. 

Kayvon, I've heard more intelligent things from a can of alphabet soup than "chicken shit kiddy diddler." I think the lack of education did anything but help your vocabulary and general motor skills.

To me the most disturbing thing is the amount of money spent on alcohol - what a waste of money  - in one hole and out the other. How many people could that have educated?  I am 60 years old and I have a 20 year old daughter who just finished her first semester of junior college (after spending 2 years in NY pursuing a career in ballet at my expense).  I dropped out of college myself to earn money and gain the independence I so strongly desired.  I have been lucky and after getting a job in a bank I have mostly worked in accounting with a decent wage but I am not even remotely rich.  If I had a degree in accounting I would be getting twice as much money but I would also be a completely different person.  I only got that job in a bank because in order to be in a class with my current boyfriend I took a course (not college prep) called business law & business machines.  I attended the University of California at Irvine for 6 weeks before dropping out because I would break out in a rash sitting in class.  College was not for me (at the time) it made be too dependent on my family and I wanted to be relying on myself. What I really wanted to do was be an airline stewardess and be able to travel the world alone and meet people from other countries and gain a better understanding of my world in general - that is still my biggest regret in life that I did not pursue that career but at the time you had to have 20/20 vision and I wore glasses (times have changed) but mostly I was considered too smart and I SHOULD go to college so I went and I took Russian and French hoping they would help me with my traveling plans. Instead it was extremely boring and I didn't learn much using the "language lab".   
I was determined that my daughter be able to pursue her dream whether that included college or not.  I can't tell you how much pressure was put upon her to go to college instead of pursuing her dream of being a ballet dancer.  The biggest flaw in the education system in the United States of America is the way they stereotype and generalize when it comes to educating individuals.  If you want to make the situation better you should become teaches and try to change the education system so that it is geared more to the hopes and desires of the individual instead of the perceived "what's best for everyone".  I think a teacher should be a coach not necessarily teach a specific subject or "to a particular test" but rather encourage learning in general.  What America needs to do is to start respecting intelligent, educated people who help their fellow man and not athletes, movie stars, rock stars and celebrities in general.  In my 60 years in this country I have watched it become more important that you ARE rich and it doesn't seem to matter how you got there.  I wish we could stop focusing on the money and start enriching our lives in other ways.  I guess I am bad mouthing this country I don't really mean to but I think it's sad that I have more than once thought of moving to France. My hope for my daughter is that she always have an interest in "learning" in or out of school.  One of my favorite sayings is "don't let school get in the way of your education" - lol.

I can not believe how nasty this all is. Would you say this to each other in person? I can not see that any of these nasty comment create any solution to the problems in the education system. Hide be hind the anonymity of the internet and continue to be apart of the problem ...

This has been an enlightening experience reading everyones posts. I am a regular student who decided to study film 6 years ago, with seemingly average grades in high school, I chose to attend a seemingly reputable private college in Boston who has since graduated. I don't try to be anything more than what I am and don't pretend to know any more than I do. It is sad that so many of you are disgruntled over the issues of higher education. Without trying to be inflammatory, it is naive and ignorant to believe that higher education is useless and it is insulting to many of us who have chosen to pursue a higher education. Many people including myself view college or university as a way to better one's self, look beyond our local communities and hopefully enrich our lives. That is not to say that attending university is the only way to do this, I know many people with a high school education or less who have done amazing things and led rich and full lives. All life is is a culmination of seemly random choices and not anyone can say which choice is better. 

I do submit of course, that the present system in which we live is flawed. There is no denying that, but people who choose work inside that system still have worth. Those of you who believe that higher educations only utility is to "get a good job" is short sighted. Working is not an end, for some people maybe it is, but working is a means to and end, whether it is to go to fiji or get an ice cream, it is a means to express your own "freedoms". Those of us who have issues with the current system, as I see it have three choices, work with the system, work against the system, or move away. To simply say... "fuck this country its stupid with all its problems" falls completely out of any of these choices. If your going to stand idly by and complain, nobody has room for that. Do something about it or move on. I hope that in this short post those of you out there can see validity in what I believe to be a lucid argument. Oh and one other thing... to loosely quote the teacher, who made a compelling argument, I'm not putting daisies in anyones rifles either.

N

"That flaunts itself round the world as being founded on the ideas of liberty and mans right to free speech?" 

Feliks, seriously?? when was the last time the US gave a hoot about liberty? This county has invaded so many countries this century alone. It voted Roland Ragan as a president for goodness sake? Arnold Swarchenegger?? George Bush???  

I also read today that YOU have rather magnanimously allowed HIV positive people to enter your your very accepting "lets base policy on actual fact" political system. 

And what do you mean if any of the points are true??? 

hmmmm all this aggression over a nicely put together wall chart! Could'nt really care less for the facts (or opinons however you may want to percieve them), but they did certainly sound shocking enough to make read on.
i guess the point was to create an area for debate over a number of possible problems currently plaguing the US higher education system, which a number of people on here failed to understand. One question i do have though as a johnny foreigner is why do people get so het up about the state of anything american? Surely as every other state-nation it has it problems? why degrade possible discussion and turn it into a playground slagging match, and try to assassinate someone else verbally for having opposing views? afterall we're meant to be discussing a facet of a country, that flaunts itself round the world as being founded on the ideas of liberty and mans right to free speech? 

However on to topic at hand all i can say is if some of the more astonshing points are true, then some Americans need to look long and hard at some of the choices they've made in life and question those they have chosen to listen to in getting there.

Indeed Cynthia! this Mosley should get his facts right. It is obviously more than appropriate to make sweeping genraliasations about the US. Who made them World Police??

Oswold!! how dare you I am a proud gun toking American. I do not own a passport and I am clinically obese. Who is Kaioto? 

Consider yourself educated!

hadley... *points to responses* behold! Internet education!

All Americans need to wake up and smell my cheese. Who did not sign the Kyoto Protocol?, who invaded Iraq illegally?, whose government supports the quite atrocious Israeli (Zionist) regime? and allows Guantanamo bay? Makes guns legal and who supports the death penalty? ANSWER YOU. Whilst I obviously appreciate that you cannot make sweeping generalisations about a race of people or indeed any country. 

The American voters owe this world a great deal!

They're = "they" & "are" combined: a conjunction. 
Their = used to indicate possession.
There = used to indicate a location.

- Message boards: THEY'RE so negative!
- If educated people want to argue online and have THEIR opinions respected, it would help if they made use of THEIR mandatory English education.
- Before I form opinions about the Southern United States, I plan to go THERE.

I'm not trying to mock anyone. This is just for the record as everyone seems to have problems with these three little words. (even my college English professor. how embarrassing for her.)

To the top comment: live with it or kill yourself. If not the latter, then perhaps dedicate yourself to making a difference.  Free the weed. 

@zak most of the people who have called Americans "greedy obese criminals" are not people using the USA for financial aid or tourism. ps. just because people don't use correct grammar on the internet doesn't reflect on their intelligence. 

Thank you, Awesome!

For a world that seems to despise America and pass us off as "greedy obese criminals," you sure don't have a problem taking our money in the form of financial aid or tourism.

If you're dissatisfied with the situation in the US, be glad you're not in 90% of the rest of the world where your homework everyday is "find something to eat," or "not get shot."

On another note, GO BIG RED!

I am a junior at Cornell - Enology and Viticulture is an incredible, new, offshoot of food science. The class "Wines and Vines" is one of the most failed classes at Cornell. It is part of the Agriculture and Life Sciences College. 

Guess what, the people who run wineries are sometimes motivated enough to learn everything about growing grapes and making wine!

I've seen too many Buttersworth's die under waffle and pancake.

Don't you love how people talk all that shit online?  I'd like to get everyone posting here in a room together and talk it out that way.  Somehow, I doubt all the shenanigans would be flying about.  I know Ben and Kavyon wouldn't last long, because I'd strangle both of them.

First of all... All of you who are using the word *FAG* and *GAY* need to stop being ignorant and learn a little respect. Second of all, this post puts down a class at Alfred Univ. called Maple Syrup and the Wine making degree program at Cornell. Both of these courses are important to the future of agriculture and the economy in New York State. Maple Syrup production contributed 13.9 million dollars to the state economy and economic impact on the state from wine production is at 6 billion dollars. Without these courses of study we would not have the necessary knowledge and skilled labor to grow these industries in the future. We all need to wake up and realize the importance of the food, fiber, and natural resources industry and not take it for granted.

US education is good, it's just that there are so many donkeys there as anywhere else in the world making for these fun facts. 

Kayvion, would you fuck me?

i think ben is the biggest fag here.

regardless of the argument at hand kayvon has not technically made any generalizations, there's personal opinion regarding given objects, i.e. the US education system, it's operation and the people running it, and a list of other things they don't like with no explicit indication of how wide spread they might be 

I come from a very middle class family and when I graduated high school 7 years ago I opted to attend my local community college. After I got all those "required" class that were supposed to expand my horizons I was able to attend a four-year university to complete my major (which was PoliSci...and I don't work for Starbucks now) in three years. I graduated from there in 2008 and was able to find a job with a local branch of a large nationally recognized mentoring organization in only 5 months. I am free of debt and getting married in 7 months and hope to start a family shortly after that. I thank all of that to my college degree. My fiancee also graduated in 2008 and she is debt-free as well. Even if a quarter of that information is relatively true, it only applies to a very small portion of the populous.  

half fact, half bullshit. fuck you.

Shut up Mark, it's piss easy to pass ordinary level Irish, stop complaining. And Irish is spoken fluently in some parts of the country, you seem to know very little about your homeland. It's unfortunate that you don't give a shit about our heritage. I sucked at Irish but I still wouldn't remove it from the curriculum, and it's not that hard to find a second level school that teaches Spanish.

OK, I get it you all think America sucks but if you lived in Ireland learning Irish (which no adult except teachers remember) and French even though we should be learning Spanish and maybe Chinese, then if you do fail Irish you cant go to college. Personally as soon as I get enough money I am getting  the hell out of Ireland and either going to America or to New Zealand. I may only be 13 but I do feel strongly about this. We have **** all jobs and virtually no money

 "Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life here"

Most statistics are made up on the spot fools.

Also

Fuck you all, I'm from Texas and proud of it.  >:3

Did anybody notice the Asian, White, Black, Hispanic statistic is half a pyramid...?

wow..i just quit this bullshit job i had (retail) to get this other bullshit job but then i had an "epiphany" these bullshit jobs are not going to get me anywhere so i'm unemployed now and i want to go back to school to figure out what i want to do with my life..but this is just too much..i mean i honestly don't care about the income i just wanna be happy with what i do..why does money have to be an issue..i don't know, i'm not even 21 yet i guess im just naiive...

 Lets not forget the worst part is paying all that while still buying an ounce a month

100% of this webpage is stupid.

I would like to say a few things. America is very fucked up. VERY. I live there. Also, it's even more fucked up to say "Then just leave." Really? Even if you've live here all your life, know no one outside the country, and have no money to? I'd like to leave, and stay gone, from America, if only i could afford to. And if i could take my whole lot with me. But that's near impossible, and telling someone to do so is very poorly thought out. I also am appalled at the fact that people actually have to "beleive" or "disbeleive" in a scientific fact. I don't know what to make of it: are the ice caps melting? Are they growing? Who the hell would know that isn't biased? I would like to care more on the subject, but it's entirely irrelevant to this post. I, myself, would like to take a break from college ad take a year off, but that wouldnt be possible, as i would forget a lot of what was learned and i would be unmotivated to go back. Having cars and degrees worth more than some people can even fathom is poor use of the economy. Education should be something everyone can have, so as to better the world. Stupid people do stupid things. Smarter people won't do as stupid things, though it will still happen, it will happen less. This post is interesting and entertaining, and i would like to leave on a final note: If everyone could leave America that thought it wasn't all that great, it would be a major cop out. Life is about not letting your situation hinder you, and making the best of it. And that includes America.

I find it interesting that the ones who commented from the beginning were hating on Americans from the south. I'm a white girl, I was born and raised in the Florida panhandle, I received my Bachelor's degree in 4 years, I worked and received scholarships and left school with no debt, I am now in graduate school on a grant (no debt), I am not obese, I can form complete sentences and all I have to say is, thank God for the United States of America.

To Kayvon;

It is always wrong to break an agreement, and since continuing to live voluntarily in a state constitutes an agreement to obey it, it is wrong to disobey that state. (Crito 52e)

in other words..........deal with it or get the fuck out!

I actually find this to be pretty accurate compared to my experiences as an undergraduate a few years ago.  Very little diversity, lots of kids spending time drinking and partying, and subsequently failing classes...

The problems with the American education system are coming from more than one place.  You've got the government, sure, but there are a myriad of other factors.  There are students with low expectations for themselves, parents willing to throw money around without discretion, school administrators more focused on making money and getting big minority/athletic/other admissions, overworked and disengaged teachers, the list goes on and on.  You can blame the government, but it's so much more complicated than that.

I got my diploma because my parents taught me that college is something that you respect and take seriously if you're going to do it.  My brother went to a trade school and now he is a welder, and he loves it.  I thought about trade school but I wanted to go into education, so I attended a university. I was able to pay off most of my debt before I started my Master's Degree, so I am starting almost fresh.  When our parents and grandparents were college-aged, it was something that the vast majority of people didn't even dream of doing, and if you could scrape together the funds you would appreciate the experience.  Today kids go to college for a "life experience."  You want a life experience?  Travel.  Join the Peace Corps.  Go on a mission trip or work on another volunteer project.  Life experiences don't have to cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.  University can be a life experience, but that shouldn't be the ONLY reason you attend.

This "study" or whatever it is being called is little more than very poorly represented data. The author clearly had an agenda, an idea that he/she was attempting to prove, and tried to collect and present data in a way that supplements that theory, rather than the other way around.

For example, the emphasis on median starting salaries vs. school attended (UConn and Yale)- this data is totally irrelevant, because it is without regard to major, profession, race, gender, or a whole host of other factors. Not only that, median starting salaries is hardly a measure of success.

Furthermore, other irrelevant data is presented in a histrionic way. Such as "57% of students take 6 or more years to finish their degrees." This does not make a point on its own, and the point that I believe that the author was trying to make is largely irrelevant- it does not factor in majors requiring extraneous work or training.

The presentation of the amount of bachelors degrees according to race was another irrelevancy. It proved absolutely nothing. More relevant (although still not relevant) data would have been degree vs. economic class.

There is also an unprofessional emphasis on classes that the author deems unimportant or a waste without fully understanding their content or the motivation behind them. The author seems to place a high value only on immediate monetary gain. This is ignorant, there is, in fact, other forms of economic gain that may be apparent to individuals who are not so focused on immediate tangible rewards.

Finally, there is a lot of data that just seems suspect here. I would like to see hard facts rather than reported statistics, and I would like to see how this data was gathered. 

thank God i'm in engineering. 

engineering physics that is ^_^

i went to college for a semester... not my thing... i was going to bee over $180,000 in debt by the end of it.  i deserve an education without having to submerge myself in debt. i want to study philosophy and live a romantic life.  i guess i have pretty much reached that now, without college... you know, i always thought that to be without a degree was to be without worth.  but after i dropped out, i realized the opposite.  as some one on here said, college brain washes you (to an extent) it teaches you greed and competition and for many males, it teaches how to womanize.  it teaches alcoholism and drug abuse.  it teaches one to accept the mediocraty of being an accountant or a scientist.  unless you are helping make the world a better place, your job is meaningless.  don't get me wrong. i'm not saying that education is useless (except for when it is given to those who do not deserve it) and thatwork is what one should be doing.  i am not part of the work force.  i guess that you could say i am part of the art force.  the bit of people that contribute to the culture and non academic education, and in return, recieve little to nothing.  i live mostly between my parents and friends houses, libraries, and overhangs.  i love my life.  for me, school was a hinderance.  this "monkpunk" lifestyle of having very little and using one's life solely as a creative force is what we should be teaching kids to do.  not money grubbing and pop culture worshiping.  

as far as texans are concerned, more power to them!  i'm from jersey myself, but the mindset of many texans (as i'm sure they are all not the same) is a conservative one. conservative, for those who don't get it means a conservative government.  they jsut want less of big brother.  they are pretty close to becoming anarchist, which is the only viable solution to all of our nations problems, no governing.  i am free as a the wind.  i give art and music and writing and take only food and shelter and a borrowed few minutes on a friend's computer.  i am happy and full of grace.  i know this is all pretty off topic, but i just wanted to say it.  

ps. if you don't like america, instead of getting the fuck out, fucking change it.  vandalize something that needs it.  paste up a flier that tells your position.  there are lots of ways to improve life.  all you need it to sttop being afraid of your parents, cops, the government, and start working with your friends to raise the quality of your life.

remember: friendship is order.

Hadley
It's fun and all to just learn skills and you can get away with "liberal education" when you are self-employed but a prospective employer will not to take your word for it when you claim to know a skill. That's why you need an institution to back you up with a degree.

AHahahahhaha!!!  

Really though, Texas fucking sucks.  Oklahoma and Tennessee too.

Also, regarding the whole "the point of education is to learn".... Perhaps when a school was the only place for days that had books and literate people, yes, but when most people have access to the internet, scholarly journals, libraries, forums, one can get a perfectly well rounded "liberal education" without ever stepping foot in a classroom. All the materials are there, and the discussion can be found just as easily. No, in this day and age I think the point of education is to learn skills. You can teach yourself skills too, but one benefits immensely from an instructor and the appropriate equipment. Plus skills are "practical" and "will get you you a job", but that's all incidental to the point: it's fun to be really, really good at something.

stop bashing each other. stop fucking disrespecting each other. it doesn't help in anyway at all, & if someone wants to be juvenile by trying to pick a fight, ignore them. don't bash americans kuz you think we're fat lazy fucks. don't bash canadians kuz you don't appreciate them. don't bash hispanics, french, english, etc. could we just get back to the intelligent conversation, if everyone is done being immature? plzkthnks.

& LOL @ the time spent on Fb/Twitter/etc.

[Freshman, Salem State College Class of 2013]

I attended a top ranked universi...  Hold on a sec...  My balls itch...

Most of this is due to the Parents' refusal to believe that their child is a not cut out for school. Rather than letting their child choose to work at Starbucks as a career they would rather go through the motions of making the child keep going to school another four years. Those who do choose to get serious about school rarely end up as a retail store manager; unless that's what they want. Those that choose to barely get by with a low GPA and never network or intern end up wasting time and money.

This saddens me. I personally go to a great school, and spend much of my time scoffing at how horrible all the other schools are, and at the same time preaching about how everyone needs to go to school and learn something so they can be producers not consumers. Clearly just showing up only leads to debt and liver failure; we need to convince kids they really do want to learn. Not only that, but we need to teach them to produce, innovate, and think critically. To me this sounds like giving everyone a laptop [with wifi, obviously], library card, and access to a lab. 


Soon we will have a pantheon of new and exciting ways to get fucked up. The future is doomed.

If you dont like it you can geeeeeeeet out!

i find it funny, that almost every single one of you is arguing over the ignorance of amerians, while saying that you, as an american, are not ignorant. now we are all intitled to our opinions, but by bashing someone else from the "south" and saying that the other must be a "yankee", arent you being just as ignorant?  I am from canada, and we have ignorant people too, they can be found anywhere you go looking for them. you cant judge a country filled with millions of people because of a few people. 

stay positive people, congrats to those of you with full scholarships, I also have one myself up here in Canada! I love post secondary and yes, some kids may fail miserably with it, but the majority definately do not! anyways, thats my two cents :) 

To our good Canadian friends to the north, and those of you reading from overseas: my apologies. Please don't take this thread as a good example of the average American. I promise you there are those of us out there who are decent, respectable, hard-working, grateful, courteous, well-spoken people. We simply have better things to do with our time than engage in the verbal diarrhea that is most of this thread.

and my thanks to those who have posted and kept it clean, courteous, helpful and intelligent.

holy piss ass, woohoo lets all tell each other were stupid and argue about it.

I was reading through all of these and found myself increasingly saddened by everyone's apparent lack of patience and civility. I agree that most of the comments became " a dumpster fire." However, this last  comment "From a teacher" is so spot on I had to voice my opinion. I agree wholeheartedly with whoever this teacher is. The whole point of education is to learn. Whether or not you get a job based on what you learned I feel is beside the point. I am currently majoring in Middle Eastern Studies at a public university. I failed every class, except art, in high school and now maintain a 3.65gpa. I have zero debt because I learned the lesson of my sisters who went to college before me. I joined the Army National Guard and started at a community college to get my prerequisites out of the way.

The amount of money I saved by simply going to a two year institution was nothing to scoff at, but I also managed to save even more money wherever possible (like lots of cheap beer, but even the cheap beer where I live is AMAZING). There are a multitude of ways to fund you education it just depends on what it is that you are willing to sacrifice. This again is another major point of costly education, it SHOULD put things into perspective as far as what it is really worth to an individual. One of my favorite expressions is that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch." I have taken this motto to heart throughout my life and make decisions based on what I hope to gain.

Middle Eastern Studies may be defined by this website as essentially worthless, as it is a liberal arts degree, yet it is certainly not a large salary that I expect to make anyhow. In fact, I am dead set on working for a government agency where I am currently making contacts and attempting to set up an internship for sometime after this last tour of duty. It helps to have friends in higher places. Which brings me to another point that has gone unmentioned, making contacts and networking become so incredibly vital to our lives the older we get and the greater our aspirations. I am still in contact with my old economics and political science professors who are absolutely amazing educators as well as just plain good people. 

Finally, if you really want to get the most out of your education, there are two things I can emphasize. First, don't go straight into college after high school if you are not sure what you want out from higher education. You can spend your younger days partying and working and live debt free (if you are smart). Then when you are ready start looking at what it is that you want to do with yourself. The only other advice I can offer is that age and experience matter. Starting my college experience at the age of 21 I noticed how much more prepared and serious I took y education. I got a lot out of all the classes and I remember much of it still. I am able to have conversations on a WIDE variety of topics and always find I learn more everyday. If you do not love to learn then a trade school is a VERY good option. It will teach you only what you need to find a job and begin making money, sometimes extremely good money. If money is what you want.

For me, the poetry in the Declaration of Independence is a promise of the freedom to PURSUE happiness. It never says what difficulties you may encounter or if you will find happiness at all. It is the pursuit which is up to you; and I for one love the chase. I hope someone gets something out of this post. 

This is a bogus website. The starting salary for a graduate of a public university is 49,000? My mother makes that now, after 20 years of working for an independent gov. agency and she didn't go to college. On the other hand, my dad did go to college and because of his salary, we can pay for almost all of my tuition without taking out loans or taking time to apply for scholarships. 

P.S., most of you sound like snot-nosed idiots, including whoever made this site.

I'm going to art school, something that seems like a black hole of money to most people, but it's not (not for my major anyway).  I'm an illustration major and my classes are centered around being better at art so that I can actually get a job when I get out of school.  For me, it's not a hole of useless knowledge, it's training and well worth the tuition.  I don't like how high tuition rates are, it makes me angry, but I value education very highly.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't plan on just surviving, I want an informed fulfilling life and a well-rounded education (if you put the effort into it) will make you a better, more knowledgeable person.  Unfortunately most people don't care about that.

College=Fun. Work=usually less fun. Four+ years of fun sounds way better than not fun.   

Kayvon get over yourself. I can tell from your breif statement that you think you're better then everyone else, and news flash you're not. Yeah, its concerning that this is happening, but have you ever thought that maybe this means that the education system is in need of change? The foundation of our current system was created during the industrial age. A lot has changed since then don't you think? so if you really hate America because of the education system then get off your ass and do something about it, But if you hate it for other reasons and this is just something your blowing steam off about, then go to another country and adopt a new culture. 

I am concerned about the overwhelming amount of comments that relate higher education with "getting a job." Unfortunately, the stresses of the economy have made us forget the joy of learning. College students are required to take classes not related to their major because it makes them better readers, citizens, writers, and critical thinkers. It exposes them to new perspectives on everything from relationship problems to the environment and allows students to encounter new thoughts without accepting or rejecting them. This is the definition of intelligence. Don't get me wrong. I am certainly not putting daisies in the barrel of anyone's gun. As an educator, I wanted to put another perspective on this "maple syrup" and "walking" business. While reading some of the more lucid comments the thought struck me: Why put the pressure on students to go to college simply to pursue what could be completed in a vocational learning environment? Because you want them to learn to love to learn. While I understand the importance of competing in and contributing to the international community for advancements in science, medicine, and art, I think that students who love information and love to read will be more likely to pursue higher education and be generally better citizens to the United States.

why is everyone so angry on this post?  everyone on this site involved in these comments, has no idea how to communicate.  You cant get mad at someone for having an opinion.  You may not like it, but you don't have to degrade them for it.  That's trashy and disgusting. 

As for the statistics above, they are inaccurate because college kids spend way more time than 10 hours a week drinking! and as for the tuition costs.... get better grades in high school and earn a scholarship!  Duh!

 And for the guy who knocks texas as the laughing stock of the country, take a look at some statistics..... That state happens to have the most stable economy in the nation right now.  They must be doing something right down there.  

EVERYONE JUST CHILL OUT!

@ ukstudent- you are only considering state income tax... we also pay federal taxes which can be as high as 35% (avg is about 25%).  some places (NYC) also have to pay a local income tax.  also, i believe sales tax in the uk is around 17%.  in orange county, california it is just under 9%.  some states have no sales tax.  yes, our tax rates are generally lower, but probably not as low as you thought.

sorry if my comment isn't completely on topic, but the comments regarding the article as a whole have turned into a dumpster fire.  

Canadian studies....I'm Canadian, and this website amplifies the judgement that is passed on your country from your good friends up North

I am a 57 year old Canadian with 40 years experience in the skilled trades, I am retiring this year .I only attended Trades School community college after graduating high School( 8 weeks each year ,for 4 years of my Apprenticeship, that I was receiving an escalating pay scale for  ) . No College Debts, no meaningless piece of paper saying that I attended an institution of "Higher" Learning . I watched my only child get sucked into this American Style of "Ya Hafta go to college to be someone" syndrome I am sorry but, it gives a false impression of the way life really is . Call the people in the trades "Knuckledraggers or Boltheads " I have heard them all. Oh did I mention that I earn $45/hr with full medical and dental ? last year I earned $98,000. The Trades are not for everyone . I just want young people out there to know it is an Honorable and satisfying way to journey through life .

booyah kayvon!!!!

I am a student. I am not in debt and I have quite a bit of my future planned out. I have 7 roommates. 6 of which are freshman. None of which have failed or plan to drop out. My other roommate and I are sophomores and she is Hispanic. She  is passing all of her classes with nearly straight As. I agree that some of these statistics are accurate. But this is not the case at all schools. Just because we are American does not mean that we are lazy or that when we graduate we will all be in debt. I unfortunately know many students who will most likely never graduate with a degree. I think most of that has to do with how they were raised at their schooling pre-college. 
I don't think all students, or Americans, should be judged off these statistics. We all have or own individual cases of how we will perform in college. I think we should all be respectful of that. 

(besides high tuition) I think that the problem that causes so many college students to drop out or choose majors that are not practical; is that High school does not prepare you for anything realistic, unless you're in a trade or vocational High school. As a result when you get to College, you waste time and money...cause "you have to find yourself and figure things out." 

I speak from experience, I was an "A" student in high school, and when I entered college I did well academically (A's and B's) and graduated with a BA in Communications, however neither education system prepared me for the "real world" and current job market. It didn't prepare me for a bad economy or a competitive business world. 

I was told in high school that if you work hard and get good grades you will succeed and become whatever I wanted. But how can you succeed if you don't explore your talents and know where you're going? High school trained me to be "the obedient good student" and that's it. 

You can come from one of the top schools, if you don't have experience and a major that functions in the current economic climate then you end up with jobs you don't like, low wages, debt and wasting more time figuring things out. 

I think that the last two years in Highschool should be completely about, finances, college, careers and giving students working experience...instead of tests and more stuff to memorize which will be totally unrelated to their careers. 

This I believe would give the students knowledge to choose and spend wisely.

Okay, I have never seen the word spew used so many times. I'm beginning to believe there are not enough creative minds out there that have the decency to open a thesaurus. So--because of this I will provide a short list of words that can be used in place of spew:
regurgitate
spritz
eruct
eject or
urp. 

I hope this was helpful.

Come back now, ya hear.

I really don't understand why there is so much emphasis on requiring a college education. Half the time, the course work will play no actual part in your future career; instead you learn some things that seem like they will be mildly interesting, probably stressful, and ultimately useless. Oh look, I have blah degree, and i went to blah school. Really, well here you go, you're hired forget what you learned, this is what you actually will use. I'm not sure if this is consistent in all fields, but largely it seems that college is just a course of rigors to train you to be compliant, or maybe just mentally flexible; learn this, forget that, do a barrel roll! Really though, the only really practical use for college that I can see is to get into an internship or work study program. Get real experience in what the actual work consists of doing, instead of experience in what a computer does and you never actually handle yourself.

So America is a country where you are free within your rights to do whatever you please, and yet these same inalienable rights that we are so famously given seem, by society's standards, to require an education. Our country has inherently linked a degree-worthy education with years of crippling debt. Now I am a person who is so ridiculously lucky that my middle-class family has saved enough to pay for most of my education so that I can get a degree, so that I can get a good job and start saving money so that I can pay for my kid's frillion-dollar education some day, so that they can get a good job and provide my grandkids with a zillion-dollar education..ad infinitum. So I ask you, what is really wrong here? Is it the fact that our right to the pursuit of happiness involves a crippling amount of debt? Or is it simply that we put such a ridiculous price on this happiness? Money, government, work, they will all f*ck you over if you govern your life by their standards. I'm not saying you should quit your job and live in the woods, I'm just saying that maybe it's time to put down the keyboard, stop arguing about your life with faceless nobodies on the internet, and go do something worthwhile, whatever that may be. That being said, this faceless nobody is getting off her soapbox, grabbing a fantasy novel, and going to bed.

I am a fully fledged american, I done awesome at the collage i went too. I had a job an enron but that didn go too whell.Now i gots one at fannie mae and here the goverment gonna helps us out. If thata donnt wurk out i gonna get a gob at gneral motors, I haer its a govermnet job. I believe that if kant get a job thier i mae go into bancking i heer theirs gud muney in that. I thin,k mi collage dune guod for me.

Let me just make a comment about the debt that college puts you into, and why the financial aid system is unfair. I was a straight A student in high school and graduated top of my class. I volunteered about 10 hours a month and got excellent scores on all my tests. I went to an engineering college to be a geological engineer and had to transfer out because of cost. I am now attending community college and working two jobs to pay for the loans from college. I did not receive a single scholarship or grant despite my academic record, volunteer work, and test scores the reason is because of my race. I am Caucasian but come from an inner city slum of a neighborhood and an even worse school. The financial aid system in this country needs help I am not being racist I just truly believe I worked as hard  as my Hispanic, Asian, and Native American counter parts yet I get no recognition. Something needs to be done. The cost of college is ridiculous!

@(everyone who got on Texican's case about his/her "should of" usage): You are all missing the biggest point of language; it is a form of communication!! You all know what he/she implied/meant when he/she said 'should of', so there is no need to blow it up in Texican's face....  see that's the problem with English classes, they show u only one way that language/grammar is "correct" and say every other way is incorrect. The fact is language, especially the english language, is always changing.  Centuries and even decades ago, common words such as: born were spelled many ways (e.g. borne bourne) which were both correct at their own times. [There are better examples, I just can't think of them right now] Anywho, the point is if u understand what someone is tryna say then, by God, they wrote it correctly.  U gotta think deeper and progress passed the shallow end of the pool.  Oddly enof txting is aiding in this evolution.

People need to wake up.  There is no need to spend thousands of dollars on education.  

The education system is a tool that is used by the government.  It has been a tool since it was first enacted.  The government uses it to brainwash its people.  Don't believe me?  Why do you think that so many people are willing to throw themselves into a ridiculous amount of debt to get an education?  Is it possibly, because that's what they are taught to do from the day they are born?

Another important issue is standardized testing.  This means that teachers have to teach to the test.  Teaching to the test means that the teachers have to teach exactly what they are told to teach, and nothing else.  

Some of the best education that you can get is to surf the internet.  So many people will roll their eyes at this one.  I want you to stop and think about the fact that all of the information that you receive from typical sources (ie: media) is filtered.  It can be spun in so many different ways.  Who controls the media?  Research it!  At least when you are reading information on the internet you are not being hand-fed the information by the media and our wonderful politicians.  Even hand-fed information can be researched further.  You don't have to believe everything that you read on the internet, because it too is biased.  The difference is that you are able to make informed decisions.  For example, the swine flu.  How many people ran and got their swine flu shot?  Hahaha...the CEO of the WHO has not even got hers yet.  Don't believe me?  Look it up.  All of the information is here before your eyes.  The question is do you have the BALLS to find it.

It shocks me that there are so many people i come across just don't seem to care about learning.  Too many people learn only the amount they need to "get by."  For those who go to college, soak in as much knowledge you can and discover yourself along the way.  alcohol will not help you very much on your path of discovery. knowledge lasts, parties do not.

I am a senior in college at the University of Minnesota, studying computer science. I will be graduating in 4 years, and have a job in software engineering already lined up after graduation. My only advice for not becoming another statistic, is to have a game plan when you start college, and make sure you major in something worthwhile (engineering, science, etc..). If you try hard, and know that you're in college to learn as much as possible, you'll be just fine.

al gore you did too, dumbass. 

All of this arguing is only contributing to the "media time" spent by students each day. All of you are dumbasses for actually taking the time to read this (and the comments) and whoever wrote this is just pissed off that they spent too much money on a dumb degree college.

-College Grad

Can I just ask with all the "America bashing" that's coming from Americans- Can I have your citizenship please? I'm from the uk and our highest income bracket is 50%, I think California's is just over 9%..? I really wouldn't mind paying a little extra for education, private healthcare etc if I was in control of where 91% of my money went. Half my dad's hard-earnt money is helping fund the sorry lives of millions of people in the uk who aren't even looking for jobs (I know, one started chatting to me in the pub the other day). It's difficult enough being a student and investing money in your own career when you know that if you're successful enough- you'll have half of what you earn taken off you! Count yourselves lucky!

Time for my two cents. I'm from Alabama. When I graduated high school (with a class of close to 200), I was in the top 10 percentile, in every academic club you could imagine, and I only got a mere $500 scholarship. I am now 21 and in my 3rd year of college. I am well over $10,000 in debt from student loans. Because of people around my area and my school giving scholarships to only those who can throw a ball of some sort, or who "claim" they need federal grants, I was left in the dust paying out the @$$ for college. Who got the big scholarships at my high school? The person ranked 12 places below me, who has very well off parents that can help pay, who spend that big scholarship at a community college, and dropped out after two semesters. Way to go. There's also tons of people at my college who have grants who: a.) have way nicer cars than I do, b.) didn't have to ever live at home or in a dorm, but rather a three bedroom apartment because of their extra grant money, and c.) are on the verge of failing most of their classes. I'm sorry, but I'm in the top percentile of my year at college as well, and I just don't see where this makes sense. Keep the smart, average ones in debt up to their eyeballs, and let the rich flunk out with little to no debt, and let the super poor flunk out owing absolutely nothing. Problem?

@Kate is a moron:  Class act.  Did you go to college?  Do you know how to think critically about anything?  Also, a class offered does not equal a major.  And what's wrong with offering a class in wine, given that Cornell has a very prestigious hospitality school?  

I agree with Verena.  These facts are totally cherry picked and the argument is far from convincing.

I personally like how you sitting at your computers bashing these United States that half of you live in. If you weren't such ignorant fucks you would be doing something better with your so-called expertise than blogging on some fact-scewing website where no one is arguing anything any better than my four year old daughter could.

Why the crap is Canadian Studies looked upon as a useless major? CANADA, not China or Japan, is the US' largest trading partner, and it is the largest energy supplier to the US as well. (NOT the middle east.)  and the degree is offered at SUNY Plattsburgh - a mere 20 miles from the Canadian border.

should of....haha. Shouldn't be a dick to others if you're retarded... Even if they are from Texas.

I'm amazed. People will argue over anything, won't they? For all your impressive degrees and as much as you insult one another's grammar usage and place of birth it only proves that no matter what side of the fence you're on you're ignorant. Viper was the only one who made any sort of valid point in my humble opinion. My God how we all love statistics, how we love to be able to put people and things into pretty little boxes so we can better understand them. Don't make broad generalizations like the ones presented herein. And mercy, don't argue about which person is more ignorant and cuss one another out in the process. What a bunch of children. If this chart convinces you not to get your degree (or that we're a horrible, worthless country), chances are you didn't have enough drive to go out there and make a difference in the first place.

fuck im hispanic

Hey Texican - it's "should HAVE," not "should of," you ignorant fuck.

Kate, it's right there online. THE CLASS IS OFFERED.  And if you went to college, you know that dismissing all facts based on one you THINK is wrong is bad.  

Guys, get the f*** out.

Ben, don't you have to pass english to start a chemical engineering major?

Man i can't wait for this country to crumble under the weight of our "college prepared" children.  

Thunderdome? 

Yes, please.

These "facts" are cherry-picked at best.  In addition there appear to be some hidden assumptions- e.g., that education is only valuable is a degree is finished in a traditional amount of time, or that the point of going to college is to make more money.  I get the sense that the author (who seems to be anonymous?) knows little about higher education or about making a coherent argument.

This is not true.  I went to Cornell and "winemaking" is absolutely NOT a major.  Because I know at least one of these "facts" is false, it makes me think that all of it is.  What a bunch of garbage.

Thanks, the sources seem quite sound so that was an interesting piece.

I like how you have highlighted the areas in red for speed reading. Nicely put together.

It is important to have this kind of criticism but I cannot see anything constructive coming from it. 
I especially find it unfairly judgemental of those degrees which the author deems unworthy. Winemaking, well, someone has to do it, each to there own.

Thank you 

Terry

I was in a university and dropped out. I left because I really need a job now. I saw that waiting four years was not really going to change much because of the major I had chosen. I left that completely and went to a trade school instead. The long run, I will end up paying less and I will be working in less than half the time I expected. The starting salary of what I would have with my B.A. is going to be the same starting salary with my new chosen A.S. Degree of Medical Assistant. I will have steady hours and enjoy life still. I cannot complain. Naturally, I am also not a traditional student. I went back to school after raising three kids up through high school and middle school ages. I have noticed my own issues with university level education. Many of the problems start with financial aid demanding on having parents income information. If a parent is not legally responsible for their child the day they turn 18, then it should not be required for students signing up for college. The income factor could be very high for some parents and low for others. How does this help the teenager who  no longer communicates with their parents or their parents refuse to help with college at all? I watched several teenagers have to leave college because they just could not keep up with the financial part of being educated because their parents were not helping at all. However, their FASFA was completely based on parents expected help (i.e. payments). I also firmly believe that students should not be required to take courses that have NOTHING to do with their major what-so-ever. I think it is a waste of time and money to sit in a class such as Physics if you are say going to be a social worker. I know anyone that had to sit through a course that bored them to tears and was nothing of interest to their major here knows what I am talking about. Unless, people start to stand up for small changes such as these, it will never change.

Hi! I'm from France (ok, don't laugh people) where our system is quite different. I suppose student life is more or less the same all around the world. I spent one year in Scotland and I can tell it was pretty similar to yours or mine (well, maybe with more booze involved though).
What I find quite appalling is the amount of money you have to spend to have access to higher education, especially in terms of tuition fees. Probably because of my cultural background, I think that education should be accessible to everyone and such high costs certainly prevent it, don't you think?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to understand. How do you manage on the whole? Is everyone wanting to go to college able to do so, one way or another? I would also be interested in knowing if some of you would be ok with a change in the system (i.e. less expensive college education) or if you're ok with things as they are right now.

@ keyvon go fuck yourself. You have no argument and no way to back up your claims (generalizations don't count) and you're a troll. 
@Josh awesome post.

I myself am studying Mechanical Engineering with a minor in Explosives Engineering at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology and i'm in my 3rd year now. While it is difficult, I believe that anything is possible if you really set your mind to it. My second year I kinda screwed around in college, got drunk a lot, didn't really study or pay attention in class, etc. and my GPA reflected that as I dropped below the mark for keeping my scholarships. This semester I had about $2000 less than I had the year before in scholarships. I ended up having to pay the difference out of my own pocket (savings) and I have to say that it sucked a lot. So I worked my ass off and now I have a 3.0 again and am going to get my scholarships back. And I took some pretty hard classes this semester too. Statics, Differential Equations, Statistics, and my second semester of Physics. I think that if you are motivated to finishing school and getting a good job (good call @who cares really?) you will find a way to pull through and succeed in college. You just have to try. Unless (like @keyvon) you would rather spend the rest of your natural life flipping burgers or running a copy machine somewhere. (don't get me wrong. fast food workers are one of the backbones of our society. without them, who's going to continue feeding us fat Americans?) [Not a joke. But not a stab at our country. I myself am "obese" as far as the BMI chart goes]

Hey as long as all the smart people are on TV making america look smart its ok right...

Keyvon, marry me.

hasn't anyone noticed that many employers seek employees with advanced degrees...usually higher than a bachelors? going to college isn't about living any kind of dream...it's about getting a freakin' job!

There are several statements I would like to make, each one either a general observation or directed at a different poster:

1. "Kayvon" is most likely a troll. "Tayvon" and "Dayvon", who posted a few minutes after him, are also most likely trolls and quite possibly the same person. I feel it would be wise to just ignore them as they are trying to instigate an argument.

2.To Texican: Is it really necessary to make such a sweeping generalization about all Texans? Doing so does not add anything to this discussion and serves more to make you look foolish (as does your poor use of standard grammar). It might be better if you actually stated what you disagreed with in Ben's statement. To make an argument you need a claim and support; otherwise you're just being loud and unproductive.

3. I really appreciated the comment that "student" made. Most students don't pay the full price of tuition. With the abundance of scholarships and grants available, it's quite common for students to attend college at a greatly reduced price. Also, there is something to be said for putting forth an effort and working hard. Many scholarships only require basic demographic information and an essay in the application process, but unfortunately there are a great number of unmotivated people. Those students that take advantage of the scholarship opportunities offered to them are generally the ones that are driven to succeed. 

4. Those viewing statistical data should always do so warily. It is extremely easy to manipulate data so that it depicts what you want it to show. Everyone has an ultimate goal they are trying to achieve in making their own posts and comments. Josh's comment pointed this out earlier (and I greatly appreciate it), but I felt it needed to be reiterated.

5. It is true that college is not for every one. It has been proven many times that it is possible to be successful and happy without having attended college. As most people are usually trying to attain success and/or happiness, this seems like a relevant thought. The point is that it is all about figuring out what works for you.

I'm working on my BS right now,
and this is the most depressing thing I've ever seen.

...I need an adult...

I hope all of you (excluding 'student', 'new phd' and 'anonymous') realize that you're ALL spewing ignorance and bullshit, simply by insulting each other based on where you live; maybe we should spend less time arguing about which part of the world is stupider, and go educate yourself about the part of the world your trying to insult. Ben, the issue isn't that we're spending too much on global warming, because we really aren't, the issue is that we're spending too much on a war we don't belong in because morons like all of you think that a bunch of Arabs living in caves hate America's freedoms and have the weapons to do so.  You are all proving (with the exception of mike) exactly what this chart is really trying to say which is that the American Education system is failing. Mike, learn speak English good so when time next you want insult us YOU don't look like ignorant useless pig of the world who will be done soon.

...wooooow

I looked up the unusual courses listed because they sounded pretty fake.

The First is a three week class offered during what the college calls centre term in January, the purpose of this 'term' is to provide alternative teaching and learning experiences for the students. This particular course is a philosophy course where the students engage in discussion while walking to and at local historic places. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

The second is basically a local history class, it teaches the students about the town and the production of maple syrup (something they do their i'm assuming). Not useful exactly, but if it's enriching than why does it have better your carrier, school should be fun too.

The last is a freshman rhetoric seminar examining the fallacies of television arguing. Not only does this sound fun, it would probably be a great class for a lawyer to take, yeah?

My point here is that there is often more to the statistic than things like this lead on.

Just something to think about.  

@Zeus:
For a world that seems to despise America and pass us off as "greedy obese criminals," you sure are paying a lot of attention to us.

I feel that these enlightening comments move me to a new level of comprehension; sadly it proves the internet is a cesspool of poor writing. Improper English and arrogance seem destined to dance together on the internet. Aside from the incompetence of the commentators so far, there are some serious issues with the whole education system in the United States. The variables are too many to count. Our government is too big and the connections with local people on the bottom are too small. We are extremely top heavy and money is spilling every which way. We make more rules than we can enforce, start more conflicts than we can support and spend more money than we actually make. The 'American Dream Lifestyle' is what draws people to college and many people should not even go... media driven society dictates where local communities should. Anger, contempt and resentment are bubbling everywhere... this system we have is not balanced and needs to be checked.

Americans are  ignorant useless pigs of our world. Luckily they have no gun control and a useless education system. Most are greedy obese criminals -Wont be long till they are done. 

Im from the south and have a full scholarship to the university of Maryland.Only a retarded yankee would spew some ignorant bull shit like that.If you hate the the US then go somewhere else that you will enjoy living. Such as tehran , Iraq or maybe Russia.Send us all a post card from the jail you will end up in , due to the fact that you have no freedom of speech , and clearly you cant shut your fucking mouth.Asshole.

Very few people actually pay the cost of their school's tuition. Scholarships and grants ensure that--especially in the private sector. I go to a small private school in Kentucky where the tuition is about $40,000 a year and I'm paying $17,000 (including my loan in what I'm paying). It's really not as bad as it sounds.

I have just graduated with my PhD in Mental Health Epidemiology. I also have a Masters degree in Public Health. I owe over $56,000 and that doesn't count what I had to borrow for my BA, since I took 4 years to pay that off before I went back to school. Sadly, I am in better shape than many of my colleagues who owe much more. 

My starting salary: $50,500 and it is in a federal grant based research field (as most mental health research excluding pharmaceuticals is), which means that I only have 2 years of job security before the grant runs out. It will be well over 10 years before I can pay off my student loans. I am 31 and have no retirement savings and owe more money than I care to think about. How motivating is that for people to pursue an advanced degree?

Ben, go fuck yourself with a crooked screwdriver.  Thank god i'm not from Texas... no wonder its a laughing stock to the rest of the country.  We should of let mexico keep it.

i dont appreciate this post at all... there is more to college than just the classes you take.  hear me out... it is about finding who you are and what interests you, and for some college just is not for them.  i agree that it is becoming WAY to expensive however, and some attend for the wrong reasons, but i think everyone needs to go to college, even if it is for a degree in bowling industry management or whatever 

kayvon is a fag 

you're a chemical engineer ben? hahahaha! and i'm the queen of england. 

Kayvon, you are so wrong. Your generalizations are making you look ignorant. I'm from Texas, with a full scholarship for academics, studying chemical engineering. I bet you anything my test scores were better than yours, too. I have a drive to really become somebody. I also love this country where people have the right to decide whats best for them, and have the means to go out and get it.
You can't really blame the country, or our politicians (although some of them are pretty bad). Our parents need to own up to their responsibilities. They need to teach their kids right and wrong, give them priorites and a moral compass, and teach them about the real world we live in. And if the kid just wants to goof off and dork around through college, the parents need to implement the "tough love" lesson. Cut them off, if they want to waste away these years, let them finance it themselves.
One thing the politicians do have wrong is squandering our money and our resources in this "global warming" crap. Or is it "climate change" now? I forget. Whatever it is, its completely unfounded. There are thousands of scientists out there across the globe, from climatologists to anthropologists to geologists and everywhere in between, who will tell you that what our planet is experiencing is natural, that it is just going through it's cycle, and that our planets ice caps are actually growing. The only people who claim it exists are the ones who make money by talking about it (ie. Al Gore), and the scientists who get paid to support those who talk about it. If we divert the billions of dollars away from this waste, and put it into education, then we will almost automatically solve the other problems our country has, such as clean water (yes, there are still quite a few places here that don't have clean water), our domestic food industry, and the energy crisis. Even our environmental impact will be lessened, by inventing more efficient and ecological technologies.

So, kayvon, if you really do hate the U.S., and all you want to do is sit here and bitch and complain instead of taking responsibility, taking control, and doing something about it, then please, get the fuck out.
:)

@kayvon. you talk about "ignorant people with no drive" yes. America has too many people like this. however, you just analyze the people as individuals and not as a nation. many people easily give in to propaganda, and lies that politicians put out there. because yes, your right there are too many ignorant people that just follow order day after day with no sentient thought to try and see through the bullshit. however, there are rare jewels you will find in America, with intelligence and drive that surpasses anyone from any nation. As a person, i think you should train yourself to find these rare jewels. As with that, it would also help greatly if you yourself didn't sound ignorant by generalizing the 304 million people in America, because i can guarantee you that 1 out of 5 of everyone of them are rare jewels. Sadly, yes, it means that the people that are worth something are still sparse

With all that hate, Kayvon, perhaps you already live in the south.

rofl

kayvon, get the fuck out

This is SHOCKING!
I hate the U.S. and dont give me any deep south bullshit, " Then get the **** out!"
This country has let this become no big deal. Our education is the foundation of existence. I hate this place. I hate these politicians. I hate ignorance and more than anything I hate ignorant people with no drive to become something more than a white bread inbred backwoods chicken shit kiddy diddler.

Im pissed.